Wow, how did those poor kids react to being told they weren't a family by a complete stranger? I guess children of single parents, I should say one parent only, aren't part of a "family" either.. I better make sure my 16 yr old knows she didn't really have a family until she was 5, when her step-dad and I married. Or are there any other exceptions to the "family" rule I should know about?? For God's Sake people, grow up, there are men and women giving there lives in this war so we can be free to tell dictate to people in our country what is or is not considered "family"??!!!! AAHHHH!!

Well, I guess I had better tell my 15 year old son that him and I have not been a family since he was 6. I hope he takes the news okay since I am the only one he has. I am not a lesbian but I guess by the definition of the "state" since I am not married my son and I are not a family. I will remember that state if Idaho.

What right does the state have to define what is considered a family? This is infuriating!! The pool should have allowed the family a discount. As the ACLU is correct in stating (wow, that's a scary thing to say), Idaho may have defined what marriage is, but they have not - and God willing never will - defined what constitutes a family.

When will these people be seen for what they really are- bigots? How is it okay to discriminate against a family, in whatever its form? Do they expect every male and female that walks in with children to show birth certificates and marriage licenses to prove they are a family according to their opinions. This should never have been an issue. The family should have been allowed to go in, without incident. One of these days, these people who seek ever opportunity to discriminate against those unlike themselves will be seen for who they really are.

This is the fallout Idahoans were warned about before they passed HJR 2. Now every Tom, Dick or Harry thinks they can discriminate at will because it's "in the constitution." I hope the State gets sued over this; I want to watch them squirm and try to defend this.

This is ridiculous. I live in Idaho and thought there was a good level of tolerance here. Apparently not. I, too, come from what society would dub a "broken family"; one parent, 3 kids. But we were (are) still a family right? What about grandparents raising grandchildren? What about foster parents raising children who were born from someone else? Are these people not considered families? I am appalled. It's time for the lawmakers of Idaho to open their eyes. To crush those children by embarrasing them and stating they were not a family is atrocious. I really hope this will bring people together to rally against this. This cannot go on.

So every "family" must present there marriage license and childrens birth records to meet the requirements to get a cheaper fare?
It is the most ignorant statment I have heard in a while. And to the person who made that statement...Karma is a B**ch and one day I don't doubt that you will be discrimnated for something as equally unfair. And when you feel targeted, hurt and shamed you remeber what you did to these children and their "MOTHERS" yes mothers.

When are we going to get past this ignorant, backwards way of viewing the world? It takes more than a man, a woman and children to make a family. These children have parents that love and care for them and this is alot more than can be said for some children raised in some "traditional families". People need to start using their "beliefs" to just themselves and not others.

we are a major tour operator located in nyc
specializing in european tour groups visiting
the USA . we offer coach tour that will NO LONGER be traveling in to the state of Idaho!!!

I'm sure if an unmarried man, his children and his girlfriend and her children showed up to the pool they would have been given the family discount. They aren't a family, they don't live together, but since they are a man and a woman, accompanied by children, they pass as a family. A single mother and her three children would have gotten a family discount, too. It's just when the same-sex couple enters are they discriminated against! It's a shame!
Idaho defined marriage, but not family! A same-sex couple is still a family, even if they cannot legally be married!
A family does not have to contain a legally married couple.

I guess that means that my 3 kids know 22, 20, and 18 and myself that paid taxes to the State Of Idaho all our lives have also not been considered a family with family values. Does not matter what the gender is male or female parent, we were not considered "family", we sure did good job as whatever you want to call it, without the dead beat dad that did not pay child support all those years and the state of Idaho who says we are not "family" did not DO anything to help out raising or collecting child support from the dead beat male, that the State of Idaho to considers us a family. This really sucks that I have to inform my kids who thought they were raised with family values did not have a FAMILY! I think this guy is just plain prejudice or worried about what is in his closet. And using the State of Idaho as an excuse!

I’m tired of people using God when it comes to defending homosexuals. People read the Bible, God calls homosexuals an abomination. If you stand for homosexual rights and are active homosexual your not Christian.

Wow, so I guess that it was ok for my FEMALE roomate and I along with her son should not have gotten a FAMILY discount either, considering we are not related, but because we went to the hotsprings together with her son we are considered a "family"? my heart goes out to that FAMILY and I know I wont be going there again...

How petty and ridiculous for the park to pick a fight with this family. They are completely off base on this. The state does NOT define what a family is. Families come in all sorts of arrangements. They should apologize, get off their high moral horse, and appreciate the patronage of any sort of family.

I feel that Each FAMILY that goes to Lava Hot Springs should either boycott it, or voice there negative feelings on this issue to the establishment each time they go in, until what I consider to be wrong has been righted.

Businesses reserve the right to refuse service or specials to anyone. That is the way it should be. Unfortunately, the ACLU has wedged their nose into the dealings of the private business or rental property owner and forced him or her to conform to 'values' they do not agree with. This business owner had every right to even refuse service to this 'couple', but they did not. He was simply excercising his American rights to honor the special as he saw fit. The ACLU has made it a habit to trump the rights of the American business owner on behalf of those who want to force their way of living on the majority of Americans who don't agree with them. We with classic American values are told not to push our 'agenda', but at the same time are forced to bow to the 'new agendas'? I don't think so. Bottom line: It's his business - his decision. They could have gone somewhere else if they didn't like the service. That is why we are a REPUBLIC, not a Socialist Democracy - yet.

You have to be pretty gutsy to admit you aren't white, married, Christian & straight in Idaho.

And if you admit you have even HEARD of the ACLU we might find you tied to a burning stake out in the sagebrush somewhere.

In my book anyone who is willing to provide a loving home to a child in the hostile, crazy world in which we live today is a freakin' saint.

And a family is a family no matter who the parents are.

Unfortunately, SOME "conventional" families teach bigotry and intolerance. And unfortunately the offspring of THOSE families often grow up to be government officials who write the rules....

At the very least the aunt with custody of the children should have gotten the family discount.

Does this business check for marriage licenses of all of their customers? What about unmarried men and women with children? What about single parents? They aren't married, so they're obviously not a family either.

Does Lava Hot Springs have the "family rate" to encourage "traditional" families? Or do they have this special rate to encourage a family to come and spend money at the resort?

Mark Lowe and the Lava Hot Springs Foundation should be ashamed of themselves. Not only is it not their place to define what constitutes a family, but they obviously have no clue as to how to run a business.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in these economic times, shouldn't you actually be "encouraging" a lot of people to come and spend money? Had the person at the window simply given them the family discount, this wouldn't have been news. In addition, Lava Hot Springs would have built some loyalty AND some repeat business.

Shame on Mark Lowe and the Lava Hot Springs Foundation. I would encourage everybody to NOT reward them with your hard earned dollars. Go to Downata Hot Springs (about 30 minutes away from Lava), or make the trek to Lagoon or Boise for a water park getaway.

There are many types of families! Perhaps they need to get a dictionary...I don't see anything in this definition that even comes close to making any references to sex! They are being judgmental and narrow minded. The first definition is my favorite..."the family of human beings"....HELLO!!

fam·i·ly (fām'ə-lē, fām'lē)
n. pl. fam·i·lies

A group of individuals derived from a common stock: the family of human beings.

A fundamental social group in society typically consisting of one or two parents and their children.
Two or more people who share goals and values, have long-term commitments to one another, and reside usually in the same dwelling place.
All the members of a household under one roof.
A group of persons sharing common ancestry.

How can you consider two people of the same sex and not even the biological parents of these kids a family???? What are we trying to teach society?? 50 years ago this wouldn't even of been a debateable topic. If you are a single biological or even foster parent of someone then, yes I would consider you a family. But there is no way in hell I would teach my kids that two people of the same sex and their adopted kids are a family. Mark Lowe if youre reading this.. I think youre dead on!!

Emotionally I define family very liberally - including friends as aunts and uncles.

In a business situation - I would define family as the people living under one roof together; or in a divorced situation, family includes the people acting as a parent (even if not legally) and their dependents, or those they care for.

Maybe dependent is the key word here to make their situation legal.

This Mark man needs to open his heart.

Boycott Lava Hot Springs.

@hanson
I serve a God who loves all people and I am to treat them as I would want to be treated. Any sin is between them and God.
Denying a person a simple discount is not just silly, it's a slippery slope to hateful bigotry.
You should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting that Christians should do anything other than love others.
Also, your is not the name word as you're.

That is horribly demeaning to not only the adults but, hugely for the children involved. They wouldn't turn down a family of ethnic race/values, would they? I hope they sue the flippin pants off that place AND WIN! I WILL NOT, go there now because of this incident.

Regardless of personal opinion (including those opinions based on faith), the same-sex couple and their foster kids should have been given the pass. First off, they are a foster family licensed by the state of Idaho, so the state defines them as a "family" in this context.

Also, the same-sex couple are the primary physical caretakers for these children, so functionally, they are no different than any other family unit. In this case, it doesn't matter if they're lesbians, an unmarried male and female couple, two sisters providing care for relative children, or single parents.

I'm a person of faith who does not support gay marriage, but it was not the place of the official at Lava Hot Springs to define family or to pass moral judgement. All things considered, have some compassion on the children. Being foster children is rough enough.

Why should the government be able to predict what constitutes a family? This is outrageous, just becasue it is a same sex marriage does not make them any less of human beings. People really need to get OVER this same sex marriage thing. If someone wants to marry someone of the same sex LET THEM AND BUDDDD OUTTTTT!!!!!!. Who cares if they are happy and in love then let them be, whay cant people live their own lives instead of dictate others. Family is sacred and for some company to deny kids the right to call there parents NO MATTER WHAT ORIENTATION THEY ARE is unconstitutional and unjust. Aren't we the land of the free? Does this seem like a subject of freedom? You know I hate being told that I am a college student which automattically makes me a touble maker and yet most of the younger people out there are more tolerant and accepting of others than the ones that say we are not mature yet.... I think that family is the most important thing in the world it is what makes us whole, without family we have nothing , our families can be anyone we love and care for. We dont need a piece of paper to tell us who our families are.

I cannot believe in this day and age when thousands of children do not even have anyone to claim them as family, we take it upon ourselves to dictate what constitutes "family". Let alone the discrimination against the gay and lesbian community. It is a sad world when children are discounted because of someone's ideas of what their home life should be like, I am disgusted!!

What about granparents raising grandchildren? Foster children? An older sister taking over for a dead or absent parent? Too bad the ten-year-old who's parent was killed by an IED lost family privilages, or can they retain them as long as they have a death certificate handy as proof they used to be in a family. Well done, Lava Hot Springs, your patriotic defense of the American family is noted, however, my family will not be visiting you any time soon.

Hanson - The bible also says that you should not eat shrimp or any other shellfish and you most certainly should not wear any clothing that is made of more than one type of material. Chances are, you probably do and chances are most "christians" probably do. You better go out and tell all those christians that the "christian card" has been taken away and tell them to go find some other faith to practice since you are obviously the police of what it means to be christian.

Unfortunately, I believe the business does have the right to deny service to anyone they want or possibly to apply discounts in whatever fashion they want, unless that is if they are a state sponsored pool or recieve state funds of some sort. If that is the case, then the ALCU might have a case. Just because this arrogant pig owner of the pool may be able to discriminate, it still doesn't make it right though. Karma really is a b*%ch though and it will come back to him.

A couple of videos to inform people about what "traditional" marriage means:

"The Defenders" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNiqfRyoAyA

"The License" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntC0PNHFRgU

If you want to talk about "traditional" marriage, this is what it means. Biblically, even. Is this really where we want to go? We've defined marriage, now we're defining family. Soon, we'll define what it means to be "American" and "citizen".

Where is all this headed? I can only quote Captain Kirk from Star Trek VI: "Earth. Hitler. 1934."

As others have stated not only does his definition exclude gay/lesbian couples but it excludes single parent families and one could argue that since he said "children" you must have more than one child to be a family. Mr. Lowe needs to get over his homophobia and not try to hide behind "the state."

I was looking for places closer to home to take my family (a hetrosexual single father and his four kids) this summer. Lava Hot Springs isn't on the list since we don't meet the family criteria.

I am saddened that people such as MeinNampa and hanson feel that people in the state of Idaho should have different rights. This is not a homosexual issue as both MeinNampa and hanson have made it out to be, this is actually gender discrimination. Also MeinNampa should read the story clearly before stating that the owner has a right to refuse someone. The issue with that assumption is that there is an individual owner, Lava Hot Springs is owned by the state of Idaho. So if the state wants to now define what a family is then it needs to go to the state lawmakers not a parks and rec manager.

Wow, as a lesbian who lives in the state of Idaho, I used to think that it was us against all the straight people, but in reading these comments I am honored to an Idahoan. It is nice to know that my son, who is currently serving in Afghanistan, is fighting for ALL of our rights. Last time I checked the Constitution of the United States stated, for the people, not just the ones that the government deem worthy.

Thanks for bring my belief in this wonderful state back.

How can you consider two people of the same sex and not even the biological parents of these kids a family???? What are we trying to teach society?? 50 years ago this wouldn't even of been a debateable topic. If you are a single biological or even foster parent of someone then, yes I would consider you a family. But there is absolutely NO WAY I would teach my kids that two people of the same sex and their adopted kids are a family. Mark Lowe if youre reading this.. I think youre dead on!!

I think the Hot Springs did the right thing. A family is a man and woman. A family is formed from a man and woman. If families were not, not of us would be here. All business have the right to refuse service to any one, no matter what religion, sex, color are. I would have done the same thing if i owned the business. We more places like that.

@meinnampa Get off your high horse. They were trying to get in to the pool and save some money in the process. They weren't trying to start a Gay PRIDE parade. No one was trying to "force their way of living" to the Americans on this day. His refusal to not work with them and come to a reasonable outcome has now created this local media frenzy and fired up the ACLU.

At the very least, the Aunt with custody should have received the discount along with the children. I'm sure that in true self-righteous Rural Idaho fashion, this jackass ridiculed them and did not give them that option.

Hanson,
You have no right to tell someone that they are not a Christian! It's people like yourself that cause hate and discrimination. Why can't you just love your fellow man and live as Christ did? Jesus never promoted hate, it is only his followers that have skewed his teachings to include hating another human being!

Recent change?

From the LHS site:

FAMILY DISCOUNT PASS POLICY
Intent: The family discount is intended to help families afford the day out at a swimming pool or
hot pool facility that they may not otherwise be able to afford. It is also intended to increase
attendance at the facilities midweek when business is typically slower. Therefore, the discount is
available Monday-Thursday except major holidays – New Years Day, Memorial Day, Fourth of
July and Labor Day.
Eligibility: In order to be as consistent as possible, families that are eligible for the discount are
considered to be parents and children. The children must be dependant children of the parent, or
parents, present at the time of entry, and under the age of 18. For the purpose of this discount,
parent is defined as the person who has long-term legal responsibility for the dependant children.
Discussion: The children need not be biological offspring of the legally responsible adult(s).
Adopted children and foster children are considered part of the family so long as the stipulations
listed above are met. Parents are defined as those adults who are either legally obligated to the
care of the dependant children or are married to the adult who is the parent of the dependant
children. Single parents and their children are eligible for the discount. Adults who are raising
their siblings are eligible for the discount.

MeinNampa, the article clearly states that the pool is run by a state agency, not a private business - rendering your argument invalid. Glad to know you consider hatred and bigotry to be "classic American values." Honestly, how does anyone else's sexuality affect your life? I'd like specific examples, please.

@meinnampa Get off your high horse. They were trying to get in to the pool and save some money in the process. They weren't trying to start a Gay PRIDE parade. No one was trying to "force their way of living" to the Americans on this day. His refusal to not work with them and come to a reasonable outcome has now created this local media frenzy and fired up the ACLU.

At the very least, the Aunt with custody should have received the discount along with the children. I'm sure that in true self-righteous Rural Idaho fashion, this jackass ridiculed them and did not give them that option.

Wow! Are they serious? What right do they have to try and define what a family is. So many good points have been made about the single parent and how according to the park that single parents with children would not be considered a family to them. I've been a single mom for the better part of 5 years, and me and my 2 girls ARE a family. Being a family is an action just as much as a word. Just because the state doesn't recognize gay marriage, doesn't mean that the homosexual couples aren't acting and functioning as a family.

For the person that brought the bible into this... Seriously??? I don't remember reading ANYWHERE in the article that talked about whether the hot springs was a Christian hot springs or not, so why would you bring it up that people that support or are homosexual aren't Christian? Wouldn't that statement alone make you VERY unchristian like?? "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned, forgive, and ye shall be forgiven."
~Luke 6:37~ You should also read Romans 14:1-13 and John 8:15-16

It is NOT for you to judge or say, it is NOT for the state or country to judge or say, in the end isn't it for God to judge or say? Whether they are morally and spiritually right or wrong is NOT for you or I to say. I personally have met some homosexual people that are WAY more loving and accepting and Christ-like in their actions, than some of the people that claim to be high and mighty Christians...

Anyways, back on track, their is NO way that the hot springs should have denied them the family rate, and honestly I believe that the hot springs owes them a VERY public apology, and not just to them, but to everyone that has an unconventional family. You can't define a family by a black and white description. In today's world there are far to many shades of gray in families, and the hot springs needs to open their eyes and realize their bias and very closed minded views aren't as welcome as they used to be!

I do not support gay marriage, however, I do find myself agreeing with the ACLU on this one. The state does not define family and since a state agency gave custody of the children to the aunt at the very least they, the aunt and children, should have gotten the discount.

I think its important that the ACLU is getting involved. Although business do have the right to refuse service, (not wearing appropriate clothing for the setting perhaps), not sexual orientation, that is discrimination under federal law! Idaho has not defined "family," and it shouldnt because most Idahoans wouldnt fit the definition!. . . ridiculous. Im glad I saw this story featured nationally, maybe Idaho will realize just how intolerant the state is. As an Idahoan, I am ashamed that this story will further sterotype Idaho as homophobic. . .

Hanson,
You have no right to tell someone that they are not a Christian! It's people like yourself that cause hate and discrimination. Why can't you just love your fellow man and live as Christ did? Jesus never promoted hate, it is only his followers that have skewed his teachings to include hating another human being!

All this over a lousy discount. All they had to do was pay for an additional adult. Hey, here is a thought, let's just get rid of the discount and pay by the person. Heaven forbid someone's right to a discount is infringed on. Let's just screw everyone else for their benefit. Change you can believe in.

Im not saying what happened wasnt wrong but i think its getting turned into a fight against the state. IDAHO doesnt define a FAMILY only MARRIAGE. This shouldnt be a fight against the state of Idaho only against the people at Lava Hot Springs Pools!!

I think they should have been allowed the family rate. HOWEVER, we no more have the right to invoke our beliefs on what constitutes a family, than the state. What everyone seems to be saying is that because WE believe a certain definition, we should be able to force a PRIVATE business owner to accept OUR beliefs. Where do we get the right to force OUR beliefs on to a business owner to accept our ways?

AND, "I agree" wrote, "SOME "conventional" families teach bigotry and intolerance.". I would dare say that some NON traditional families do as well and that your very comment is somewhat bigoted. Not all conservatives are "hate-filled". Its possible to disagree without hate being a factor, and not all liberals are "all accepting" of others by any means. Just read bumper stickers.

Have you written your state representative? Mine has responded to my email saying first that he was not aware of the situation and second that he would look into it.
I think that the executive director should be sanctioned.

I am glad to finally see someone stand up and take a stand for what is right. A huge pat on the back of Mr.Lowe. I am soooooo tired of everyone whining and complaining because they didn't get what they want. Well deal with it. Sometimes life is hard. This world is getting so PC that you can't do or say anything for fear of being labled. Well good for Mr.Lowe. I will make sure and get to Lava this summer to support such an upstanding place. Wish more people would stand up for what is wright and just.

@hanson & @eric,
hatred is /*not*/ a family value. It is people like you that give our state a horrid black eye. Doesn't Christianity teach you to not hate others? you two should go back under your rocks.

My partner & I are proud lesbians that do live in Idaho and we consider ourselves a family. I applaud Amber & Jeri for speaking out. The double standard of "family" in Idaho needs to go away.

Guess who just lost out on MILLIONS....

I am glad to finally see someone stand up and take a stand for what is right. A huge pat on the back of Mr.Lowe. I am soooooo tired of everyone whining and complaining because they didn't get what they want. Well deal with it. Sometimes life is hard. This world is getting so PC that you can't do or say anything for fear of being labled. Well good for Mr.Lowe. I will make sure and get to Lava this summer to support such an upstanding place. Wish more people would stand up for what is wright and just.

Wow! I think everyone posting just needs to CALM DOWN. Seriously. Yes it is wrong. Same sex relations are NOT meant to happen. Get that checked and fixed. If your doing it for a fad, FIX it. Nonetheless, I have friends who are. What can I do, prevent it and hate everyone? Ridiculous. So obviously I'm not for the gay thing, but I'm all about children and making sure they are happy, and swimming makes them happy. I would've given the discount. I think the owner would've been fine if he did as well.

But you all want to wage war and cause a big stink. Fixing the issue is one thing, but being a bunch of loud mouth protestors, and refusing to tour through Idaho is just stupid.

Remember, not all the million little laws that each state contains are thought about and changed on a daily basis. Sometimes, things need to happen to bring it to Idaho's attention. So, bring it to their attention.

If you are complaining while sitting on your butts, you have no right to your opinion, it carries no weight. Get off your butts and bring up and out in the open. Back it up. Thank you.

P.S. If you don't like my gay comments, remember I'm not an enemy. At the same rate, I am just as entitled to my voice as everyone else.

The Aunt who has custody of the children should have gotten the family discount. But the other woman, her partner, is not by law part of the family so should have just gotten the regular rate.

DEAR TAMMY,

Who said anything about hatred?? I have no hate towards anyone that is gay or lesbian. Do i agree with their lifestyle? Absolutely not! Will I teach my daughter that it is wrong? You better believe I will. Christianity has taught me not to hate others, but it has also taught me that marriage was meant to be between a man and a woman...hence ADAM AND EVE. And if it werent for that special bond..you wouldnt be here either.

Lava Hot Springs owes a very public apology to this family. And free FAMILY admission for the rest of this season (Mon-Thurs) would be a nice gesture of goodwill.

The best thing here is to boycott Lava Hot Springs. A family doesn't have to be a male, female, and kids. What about the divorced or widowed parents? This idiot at that pool should be fired as well. What if these folks came in and said, "This is my sister and my kids." They probably would have been given the discount. Lava Hot Springs will lose more business and have such huge bad press over this than the measly few bucks it would have cost them giving the family a discount. Lava Hot Springs isn't the Supreme Court and has no business being anything other than a resort. I am ashamed that such people exist and operate a State Park.

The best piece of writing I've ever read on the subject of what constitutes a family is Barbara Kingsolver's essay, "Stone Soup." It is in her book called, "High Tide in Tucson." Most of you who have commented on this would really appreciate this brilliant writer's view of the matter.

This doesn't surprise me and it shouldn't have suprised this family either. This kind of bigotry is pretty much the norm in the Gem State. I'm a professional college educated guy, I'm gay, and lived in Idaho much of my life. I know whereof I speak.

It is all wrong. Open the Bible and see what is and what is not. God created all of us perfect. You will be judged on judgement day but remember this to be forgiven you have to stop living the life of sin. The sad thing is the children of this life style. Yes the Aunt should get the family pass. The partner no and if the State has let them both be foster parents to these children then the State is wrong. What has happened to NORMAL FAMILY VALUES. Yes I am offended by same sex partners.

Agree, homosexuals should not be allowed to adopt children and corrupt their minds. Our nation, degenercy in action.

Eric: "Well, I can tell you that isn't a family. A family consists of a father, a mother, and children. Sometimes the basic unit is modified, depending on circumstances: a death or inability to have children. This isn't a new idea. From historically to biologically to the animal kingdom, homosexuality has no place in a family. Historically: when ... Read Morehomosexuality was introduced, the family was/is dissolved. Biologically: procreation just can't happen between two of the same sex. Sorry. And in the animal kingdom, species wouldn't survive if they adopted homosexuality. Family cannot be redefined or even used as a euphemism. Two women living together with children: it's sad, an abomination, and immoral--but never a family."

In Response to Eric: I suppose 'standards, boundaries and morals' are a matter strictly based on personal preference and opinion and/or how you were raised to think and believe. Eric has a right to his beliefs and only he can change them, if he so chooses. I believe a family to be at LEAST one mother or one father and a child+. I also believe those kids are damn fortunate to have 2 adults lovingly caring for and raising them.

Leah,
Same sex relations are NOT meant to happen??
Really?
In what sense?
Homosexual were born that way. They have just as much control over their sexuality as you have over your skin colour.
I feel sorry for you and your ignorant viewpoint.

Would Mark prevent an unmarried single mother of three present themselves as a family?

Would Mark prevent an unmarried couple and their two children from presenting themselves as a family?

Would Mark prevent a married couple with children only belonging to one of the parents present themselves as a family?

Mark is a bigot.

It is time the Christian Taliban was removed from positions of authority in America.

Contact the director of the Lava Hot Springs Foundation:

Mark.Lowe@lhs.idaho.gov

The email address alone should let most of you realize this is NOT a private business -- it is a STATE agency. Perhaps it's time for Idaho to get out of the resort business.

If the state recognizes them as a foster family, why would it hurt to allow them a few dollars off their entry price to enjoy family time. I'm not gay or lesbian, but I am human, and so are those who are gay and lesbian. Were the few dollars you denied that lesbian couple and the three children they provide a home to worth the ridicule, negative attention, and certainly a partial loss in revenue by those offended really worth it? You may let my family in, we fit your "definition," but you can rest assure I'll remember this story when I approach your facility to enjoy my family time and definitely think twice about giving you my money.

TO AJ:

The "Christian Taliban"????? THIS COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED ON THE PRINCIPLES OF CHRISTIANITY!!!!! One nation UNDER GOD. You sir are just as guilty for your words against a christian person as Mark Lowe was for denying a same sex couple a stupid family discount.

the pool is right. just because a person chose to be gay does not mean they get rules change for them. the pool did not make the rule yesterday. If you chose that life style you need to go along with all rules sorry you chose the life style so buc up put up and most important shut up.

It is truly sad to see that not only are we discriminating against people involved in same sex marriages, but we are also discriminating against the innocent children involved. How is it okay to deny three foster children, who have just discovered a real family, the right to be recognized as one? It is disappointing to see stories such as this when we live in a country where we pride ourselves on our freedoms and opportunities. It is wrong to deny anyone equal rights in a time when we are taught to accept everyone for who they are. I am 21 years old and feel as though my generation was raised this way and is far more advanced than the generation ahead of us, and those who were not, wake up! Shame on you Idaho, open your eyes to the changing world around us.

Just one more example of people with "small" minds trying to tell others how to live their lives! Sad, Sad, Sad..........

Taber's Cyclopedic Medical Dictionay; Definition of Family 1. A group of individuals who have descended from a common ancestor. 2. In biological classification, the dividsion between an order and a genus. 3. A group of people living in a household who share common attachments, such as mutual caring, emotional bonds, regular interactions and common goals, which include the health of the individuals in the family.
The state of Idaho does not define family as a male and female married with/with out children. The State of Idaho defines marriage between Male and Female. Mark should not be making up definitions nor should he miss quote the State of Idaho.

Ok I want to say that I do not believe in gay marriage and such However I am a little confused about the policy in a whole.

1. Does the family have to be a particular size i.e. two adults 2 kids or does it even matter the size 1 adult 5 kids.

2. There could be some problems if you say family discount can apply to anyone i.e two friends of the same sex come with "their" children and they say they live together as a family just to get the discount.

3. Mom brings her kids with grandma.

4. I think they probably should stop their promotion so that their could be no confusion and problems in the future. It sounds like a very silly deal if they have to go through the trouble to say no to these two. They could of at least given the family discount to one lady and the kids. But there again I could see how the ACLU could be called.

They should just throw out their family discount. Or make it a group discount i.e 5 or more people get this price extra. This way anyone could get the discount with out disclosing if they are a "family". Case closed.

Hmm, well, it just seems to me like this is exactly the values a great deal of that region of Idaho professes as "Christian".

Having gone to college in Pocatello, I can assure you that Boise and Eastern Idaho are very different in terms of degree of tolerance to different lifestyles overall. This lack of tolerance perhaps another example of where religious belief and interpretation of laws are being callouses blurred for a personal agenda!

How sad children are caught in this shameful agenda!

“The test of the morality of a society is what it does for its children.” --Dietrich Bonnhoffer

Ok now I am confused as their policy this is what the policy states

Intent: The family discount is intended to help families afford the day out at a swimming pool or
hot pool facility that they may not otherwise be able to afford. It is also intended to increase
attendance at the facilities midweek when business is typically slower. Therefore, the discount is
available Monday-Thursday except major holidays – New Years Day, Memorial Day, Fourth of
July and Labor Day.
Eligibility: In order to be as consistent as possible, families that are eligible for the discount are
considered to be parents and children. The children must be dependant children of the parent, or
parents, present at the time of entry, and under the age of 18. For the purpose of this discount,
parent is defined as the person who has long-term legal responsibility for the dependent children.
Discussion: The children need not be biological offspring of the legally responsible adult(s).
Adopted children and foster children are considered part of the family so long as the stipulations
listed above are met. Parents are defined as those adults who are either legally obligated to the
care of the dependent children or are married to the adult who is the parent of the dependent
children. Single parents and their children are eligible for the discount. Adults who are raising
their siblings are eligible for the discount.

So why were they told no? As much as I feel the gay life style is wrong morally I still feel that companies need to stick by their own policies. This give this whole issue lots of negativity.

"... THIS COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED ON THE PRINCIPLES OF CHRISTIANITY!!!!! One nation UNDER GOD. ..."

The phrase 'under God' was added by Eisenhower in 1945 (http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_pled.htm), and the 'Founding Fathers' had wide-ranging religious and non-religious views (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States). This country was founded on the principles of freedom and personal responsibility, with separation of church and state built into the First Amendment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States).

Mark Lowe, executive director for the Lava Hot Springs foundation, said the state doesn't recognize gay or lesbian marriage and defines a family as one male, one female and children.
"We are a state agency bound by all the laws of the state of Idaho," Lowe said.

Unless I am mistaken the Idaho Department of Health and Welfare is a state agency. The Idaho Department of Health and Welfare defines a Resource Family (Foster care family) as an individual or family providing care for a child in the family’s home. While the family in question does not meet the current definition of marriage they do meet Idaho’s definition of a family. Foster families are important to the health and wellbeing of our community and should be supported and recognized by Lava Hot Springs like they are by the Idaho Department of Health and Welfare.
Mark, your argument does not hold water, there is no state definition of family that precludes a same sex couple from being a family.

Um, I suppose that a single dad or single mom would be denied access as well under the resorts wacky logic. What a bunch of ignorant people. And this is why it is so important for gay people to be able to marry under the law. Because this is PURE bigotry and hatred towards people who want to spend their money as a consumer, but is being shut down because of who they are.

Disgusting.

Even our highly bigoted Customs and Immigrations agency has changed their definition of "Family" to include anyone living at the same address. Sad and embarrassing for Idaho

Ok...first of all, that is one helluva pool!!!

Secondly, this is such crap! As a conservative Christian that believes strongly in the sanctity of marriage and strongly against homosexuality, I still find this appauling! Even if I don't agree with the family make-up, it's not my right to say they aren't a family with the same rights as me and my family...or SHOULD HAVE!

So, by their definition, non-families include:

1) Single mother
2) Single father
3) Mother and aunt out for a day with the kids
4) Older sister taking her young siblings

I think you get the idea. My point is that YOU don't decide who MY family is. You certainly don't tell some kid theirs isn't a real family because you're a closed minded jerk (or any other reason).

I sure do hope no one's parents or grand parents ever die, or they're just not a family anymore!

Lynne M: Actually, female cooperative "families" are more the norm than you think in the animal kingdom. Example, lions live in prides with one father that does the insemination part and wards off other adult male lions from impregnating any of his females and then the females of the pride rear the children and do the hunting. Lions do this for genetics and passing on of stronger traits. Zebras live in herds. Rhinos live in a crash. Wolves live in packs. Gorillas live in troops.

More than 50 years ago women lived together all the time and raised children, they were called convents and in times when nobody else would stand up for orphaned children, these women did.

My mother's own family was a strongly bonded female pack. The fathers abandoned my grandmother and my great aunts and their children when the task became too overwhelming and left the women to care for all of these babies. It took all of them banding together to keep everybody fed, clothed and housed in a time when women weren't seen in the workforce.

Even now, when I take my own children to the pool I take my sister or one of my closely bonded friends with me to help watch the kids. My husband has no interest in going to the pool (kudos to you men who step up) and my sister or one of my friends will play with one of my kids while I play with the other and then we switch. It would be great if they gave a "pack" discount!

Raising kids is exhausting, hard, unappreciated, grimy WORK. Doing it on your own will make a person insane. It's a lot easier doing it in a pack, a pride, a FAMILY. It's the moments of fun and play, like going to the pool with your family, that make it all worth it. Shame on anybody that wants to rain on that moment of joy.

The family was defined a long time ago. Before the world was made. And I completely agree. That couple, even though they are good people, and have children, DO NOT FIT THE DEFINITION OF A FAMILY. Marriage, as defined by God, is between a man and a woman. And to be a family, one must be wed, legally. Thank you good people who adhered to this definition. Strictly.

I've never agreed with the way that homosexuality has been embraced as a cultural norm. In fact, I think that the APA did society a huge disservice when they took homosexuality off the list of recognized mental disorders back in the early 1970s. As for Lava, they have guts to do what they did in the politically correct culture of today. Good for them, if they allow these lesbians to receive a family discount then they legitimize homosexual relationships - something the state says it won't do. So why should they? They weren't thrown out or barred, they just have to pay a higher price.

Parents are defined as those adults who are either legally obligated to the
care of the dependent children
*****
Considering the one woman was the aunt, and had legal custody of the children, Lava Hot Springs violated its own policy.

By the way, families come in all shapes and forms. I am the proud daughter of a gay man; he took me in and cared for me when so many "Christians" wanted nothing to do with me. For anyone to even say that these people aren't a family is absolutely ridiculous; they are just as much a family as any other, and deserve to be treated as such.

Furthermore, the United States was not founded as a "Christian" nation; the Founding Fathers specifically intended that people be allowed to worship as they saw fit, and that included not worshiping. And the "Biblical" definition of marriage doesn't always represent one man-one woman, nor does it always represent it as an equal partnership - invoking that definition simply isn't realistic.

I will never, under any circumstances, patronize Lava Hot Springs again until they apologize to this couple and their children, and recognize there are many types of families in this world.

Eric [June 10, 2009 12:48 PM]:
You are kidding. You must be kidding.

"Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any Manner contrary to their conscience." -James Madison

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies." -Ben Franklin

"I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society." -George Washington

All three signers of the US Constitution...

We were not founded on religion, we were escaping it.

This is why my Husband and I left Idaho after living there for 5 years and then have his whole family turn on us and voted for HJR 2 . This type of Bigotry happens in Idaho all the time. I am not suprised @ all. This couple can't do anything about it because Idaho has ZERO protections for GLBT people. ZERO.

This is a violation of these kid's rights. The State Health and Welfare grants these selfless women custody of these kids. How must these kids feel?? What kind of family value is this? Lava Hot Springs telling these kids their family is not real? This action is an outrage!! Legislative Changes Must be made to protect Idaho Human Rights!!!

Here the rules for a Family Pass to our local pool up in Moscow. Anyone that lives in the house should be considered family especially if they claim them on their taxes. We used to live in Nampa and I Foster kids were allowed to be on a family pass. So why is it different for Gay or Lesbians families. It shouldn't be period!!!! Gay or Lesbians are no different then the rest of us! I am happily married but believe everyone should have the same rights no matter what your religion or beliefs are!

Household Season Pass Definition of Eligibility: Individuals claimed on income taxes or those residing at the same residence for at least three months of the year. Babysitters or nanny's not living at the household residence (with exception of special needs care givers) are not included in the Household pass and must purchase a separate individual pass or pay the daily drop-in fee.

The definition of family has definitely reached a gray area in today's society. Gay and lesbian have now become something everyone is used to seeing but it will NEVER become "normal" because guess what?? IT'S NOT NORMAL!! Man and woman are physically designed to be together, it's the way God planned, by being lesbian/gay you are in no way following that plan!! What if everyone became gay/lesbian???? It's not rocket science people!! WE WOULD BECOME EXTINCT!!! None of your so called "families" would exist!!!

Social Workers Support All of Idaho's Families

NAMPA—The Idaho Chapter of the National Association of Social Workers (NASW Idaho) condemns the discriminatory action of the Lava Hot Springs Foundation in Pocatello, Idaho for not allowing a family headed by two women to have the family price for admission. A similar act of discrimination was committed by the Nampa Family Recreation Center several weeks ago.

"This is a disturbing trend in Idaho and why the state needs to amend its constitution to allow same-sex couples to marry. Too many Idahoans are using our current constitution to justify bigotry and hate," said Delmar Stone, lobbyist for NASW Idaho. Strengthening families and providing family support are priorities of the social work profession. The family is the primary socializing agent and the primary economic unit in our culture.

Contemporary American families are an amalgam of many different lifestyles and many different structures. Policy cannot be primarily based on the traditional nuclear family. Families can include a mixture of race, culture, religion, ethnicity, and sexual orientations. Family composition may cover a range of constellations, including traditional married parents with biological children; divorced, separated, or unmarried parents who have individual, separate, or shared responsibility for the care of children; intergenerational arrangements for child or elder care; gay and lesbian couples with or without the care of children; couples in which one or both partners is transgendered; and adoptive parents and foster families (U.S. Household and Family Structure, 2008).

Family social policy needs to recognize and respect a variety of family compositions and their respective specific needs. "Family" is defined in its broadest sense to include two or more people who consider themselves "family" and who assume obligations and responsibilities that are generally considered essential to family life. Families are first-line providers of such services as health care, counseling, education, dependent care, long-term care, and income support.

Families with gay and lesbian members continue to face a multitude of challenges in Idaho including discrimination that includes loss of employment, absence of domestic partnership rights, and lack of support from law enforcement agencies and the Idaho Legislature concerning civil rights. Positive gains are beginning to be seen in other states, including for example, the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit upheld an employer's job termination of a counselor who refused to counsel a lesbian client on relationship issues, stating that homosexuality conflicted with the counselor's religious beliefs (2001), and, most recently, New Hampshire became the sixth state in the nation to recognize same-sex marriage (June 2009).

Idaho families can find a social worker by going to www.helpstartshere.org and clicking on "Find a Social Worker."

For more information on NASW policies regarding the family or lesbian, gay and bisexual issues, please contact the Idaho Chapter Office at naswidaho@earthlink.net or 208-475-4215

For media outlets: To speak with a social worker about this issue, please contact NASW Idaho's Lobbyist at 208-466-0511.

The National Association of Social Workers (NASW), headquartered in Washington, DC, is the largest membership organization of professional social workers in the world. The Idaho Chapter Office is located in Nampa. NASW promotes, develops and protects the practice of social work and social workers. NASW also seeks to enhance the well being of individuals, families and communities through its work and through its advocacy.

Here’s my question to Idaho. You state a family consists of one male, one female, and children. So would this same pool deny the reduced admission if a single father or single mother came with their children?

I dont know what you people are talking about being christian and everything, if there was a christ (which there isn't) he wouldn't want to be caught dead knowing these christian "people", i mean would you???? Im so not christian, but i have values and this is messed up either way you look at it????

umm, please someone tell me when things changed suddenly and marriage is a necessity to be called a family? I guess many American people with divorced or unmarried parents are mistaken into believing they are a part of a family...get real America!

Look up the meaning of family in the dictionary. Nowhere does it state a family having to consist of man, woman, children and be wed. You people are describing marriage. There is a BIG difference! My mom took her grandchildren to that pool every summer and got the discount. Why should these ladies be any different?

What an interesting thread this has become! The same old crew of bigots have been outed (again, ad nauseum), but there have been some surprisingly LIBERAL comments from some I would have expected to hold a much narrower view of the rights of others.

I feel a lot better about being an Idahoan these days than I did twenty years ago.

Wow! I am amazed at all the prejudiced, ignorant and cruel people that live in this valley, especially those who claim to be loving Christians. I am curious too, if a woman loses her husband due to the war in Irag, and goes to those pools, with her two children, are they in favor of denying them a "family rate?" If a man, loses his wife due to a devastating battle with breast cancer and he takes his two sons to the pool, will they be denied a "family rate?" Family is not defined by law,and the issue here wasn't whether or not the couple was married, it was whether or not they were a family, and people are definitely confusing the two. Embrace kindness and caring, not hate and discrimination. Grow up and become a part of the human race people.

hanson said:
I’m tired of people using God when it comes to defending homosexuals. People read the Bible, God calls homosexuals an abomination. If you stand for homosexual rights and are active homosexual your not Christian.

Are you KIDDING me? You are right I'm not Christian. When did being a Christian deliniate the be-all end-all of morality? I work with foster families (note the word...family) all day and despite the fact that they are not their birth children these folks go above and beyond to BE a family for a kid who has none. And I do not care if you are homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual or from another darn planet! You have a right to have kids and a family! Idaho can define marriage all they want but only a family can define what a family is to them! How many of us have redefined our families by taking in someone elses neglected kid? by divorcing, remarrying or whatever. Do NOT tell me my "eclectic" family isn't a family or that someone who is other than heterosexual is an ABOMINATION!!! Hmmmm..I believe that would be judging, and I may be a lowly pagan but I believe there was something in the Bible about not judging others....something about specs and rocks...or some such!!

This FAMILY wasn't going to church. They were trying to take their children to the pool. The state of Idaho (Health and Welfare) gave the rights to the aunt, therefore saying she is the kids' family. I guess if I were to go to Lava Hot Springs I wouldn't be able to get a family rate because my children's father is a deadbeat and isn't around.

Thanks Lava.

If you haven't already, drop Mark Lowe a note and let him know what you think: Mark.Lowe@lhs.idaho.gov

JV said:
Agree, homosexuals should not be allowed to adopt children and corrupt their minds. Our nation, degenercy in action.

Response...
So you are saying that Gay can rub off? Interesting. So all those parents who find out their children are gay were also gay? Is it transmitted by blood? or is it more like a virus and spread through the muccus membranes? Oh and what about gay parents who have straight children, hmmmm what went wrong there? Oh and just so you are aware there is less child abuse in families with same sex parents. What does that say about the "Christian Majority" and their ability to follow the word of their god and parent their children?

This is not about marriAGE, IT IS ABOUT FAMILY! IT IS NOT ABOUT MORALS, IT IS ABOUT FAMILY!
People need to stop the crap! Everyone has the opinion, but this is about family. And the State of Id saw them as a family when the let them foster those children (it is called FOSTER FAMILY)! NOT ABOUT JUDGEMENT, BUT ABOUT FAMILY!

Well, they are not a family. A boyfriend and a girlfriend who live together do not get the same discount...do they?
Sure, it stinks for the children caught in the middle, however, the cohabitants should not be trying to take advantage of the system either. By their logic, I could take my dog and puppies and say that we should get the discount because well, we live together, I love them and I adopted them. Where does it end? You give an inch and a mile is taken.

Email Lava Hot Springs and let them know what you think of their "definition" of a family: mark.lowe@lhs.idaho.gov

I think everyone should be aware of the Y's policy also with regard to families. My grown son and granddaughter, who is 8, have been living with my husband and myself for 5 years, and will continue to do so indefinitely. When I applied at the YMCA for a family discount, I was also told that it was not possible because we didn't represent a "family"!! Is this the family-friendly YMCA??

I can't believe, in this day and age of 50%+ divorce rates, that ANYONE could discriminate against this loving FAMILY. The 1950's Ozzie and Harriet days are long gone, and the backwards hicks of this state had better learn to deal with it especially if you own a business, otherwise that business will not stay open. There have been numerous posts with varying definitions of "family" and every one of them apply. Two or more people, no matter sex, color, age, religion, etc constitutes a family and no government has the right to define it as anything less. The bigots of this state had better realize that descrimination WILL cause you and your kind to become the scourge you decry now. Wise up Idaho.

I heard a comic once who pointed it out very succinctly. You can try to stop it, but gay people are going to be gay no matter what your silly "laws" are. You can't stop the "gayness."

And for all of you "the country was founded on Christian beliefs" naysayers, actually it was founded on freedom from persecution. Our founding fathers didn't want some government telling them what God to believe in.

No wonder we Idahoans get such a bad rap.

Family dynamics require only 2 things to make what ever the cicumstances that made up the family,Respect and Love.You can argue the morality that relates to Gay couples till the cows come home,but ultimately isn't it how we treat each other that is the real issue.How many "familys" out there have abuse in the home,how many Familys" where one parent kills the other members.My husband and I have raised our Grandchildren does that according to the people that run the pool stop us from being what is in thier eyes a "Family" because we are not the Parents? The children are so blessed to have a couple of People who love them and to be rebuked BECAUSE they are Differant to them is well Nazi/segregation thinking it's all about Respect and love that is what makes a family Maggie.

Unbelievable. It's 2009 and we're still stuck in this completely outdated concept of family. So, let's see. How many Biblical "families" would be denied admission? Lots of those men had more than one wife. Oh, and let's not forget Jesus and His two dads. Way to go, Idaho. Welcome to 1953.

What a shame that this "Family" doesn't have an actual base to be founded upon. Somewhere it said that there was a divorce and then strait into a "lesbian union". If all of you are thinking that the kids are going to be effected with the pool people saying they are not a family, Why don't you think about the kids growing up and not having a father to go to Daddy/Daughter or Daddy/Son activities. Are one of the "parents" going to cross dress so they can be involved in that too? I say good for the pool for standing up for what was established with our for fathers so many years ago. It is truly about time that we stand for what this country was based on and not what the tree huggers, homosexuals, democratic liberals and such have made it out to be. On top of that, it is a nice thought to know that I will be going to swin at a place that has a "FAMILY" environment so I don't have to explain to my kids why those two ladies/guys are holding hands in public.

Idaho sucks, that is dumbest and most ignorant thinh I have ever heard

Matt - You don't want to have to explain to your kids why 2 people of the same sex are holding hands in public??? Whether you agree with it or not, and whether you WANT to see it or not, it's going to happen. Don't let your kids grow up in a bubble, because by doing that, when they grow older they are more likely to seek after everything that you tried to hide them from. I come from a TOTALLY different view point from you, but trying to hide homosexuality from your children isn't the right thing to do. Take the opportunity to educate your children about it however you see fit, don't try to pretend like it doesn't exist, and please please please try to do it with the least amount of bigotry as possible, don't teach them to hate, but if you honestly believe it's wrong, tell them it's wrong but that they should still love every one even if you don't agree with it...

TO: SERENA

No Serena, YOU are ignorant. There was a study many years back, forgive me for dates because I'm horrible with those, but I believe they began in the 70's. They found something chemically wrong inside people who were gay, there was a medication used and it helped them. They became straight. It would still be here today... The problem was that the gay people could claim it as a disability. Can you imagine how expensive that would get after a while? Likewise, can you imagine how many less gay people there would be?

The other part of this is my experience of growing up around them. I knew people with the actual problem compared with people who tried it, liked it, and figured they were gay...wannabes. Of course you will like it, someone is playing with you in a sexual manner, that does not mean you're gay. I can count on two hands that 7 people that I know have the issue, out of the many, many, many I have met. The rest are falling for a fad.

What you are saying is that dang near half the people in the world were born this way. Which to me is either ridiculous, or there is a serious chemical imbalance outbreak. You know the old saying "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve". Silly, but very true. That's true nature and a vivid example.

What studying have you done on this subject that makes you believe they are born gay? I will tell you, it is hear-say. You really have no idea.

I am not an enemy, but I think that people should really look in to this issue because there are gay people who do not want it, but can't get rid of it. You may be partially correct as far as "born gay", but don't forget how society is raising children to believe, and what the latest fads are. Think about it. Do your homework. I don't judge gay people, but they should seriously look in to a long lost study that ended because it would've been too expensive. Prove me wrong. If they are "meant to be" gay, it won't work.

Nonetheless, this subject was on family. The Aunt is the family, the other female doesn't constitute, but should've gone in at least as a friend because there was still a family there. I would have let them in, with out a thought, under a family discount.

THANKS YOU Mark Lowe for defending the family and the sanctity of Marriage. You have my full support. I pray for you and wish for the best outcome in this battle.

Are people in Idaho surprised that this kind of hatred exists? Talk about people being raised a certain way...I've been raised to believe that people from Idaho are a bunch of uneducated-ignorant people. Imagine my surprise when I saw so many comments here that were in support of the lesbian couple. I think its funny that christian "traditionalists" biblically hold on to the gay issue but ignore and avoid (conveniently) all of the other "rules" in the bible. Based on their own belief systems, they are going to hell too! :) So maybe not ALL of the people in Idaho are a bunch of uneducated-ignorant people...although you've changed my mind,it seems a good portion still are REALLY DUMB. As for gay people being treated like they are perverts, I say that its the STRAIGHT people that are a bunch of perverts: just turn on the TV....one example: The Girls Next Door, another example: The Bachelor/Bachlorette (did YOUR GOD intend for marriage to be a gameshow?)....but the list goes on and on. A WORD TO ALL THE GOOD CHRISTIANS OUT THERE: put a leash on your hate-filled barking dogs, they are getting annoying and they may need to be put down!

I am happy that the two women and the children were denied the family rate. My only reservations stem from the impact that the experience may have on the children. Alas, the childrens' worldview is already so distorted by having same-sex parents that it will probably not make a difference in the long run.

I feel like a lot of people are missing the point and getting so caught up in their beliefs for or against gay marriage and homosexuality in general. This isn't really about that. It's about holding everyone to the same standard regardless. If I showed up with my boyfriend and daughter I doubt anyone would question giving me the family discount. Yet 2 women with 3 kids are turned away even though no where on Lava's website does it define the requirements for the family discount. No where in Sec 28 of the Idaho State Constitution does it define family. It only defines legal marriage. And marriage isn't what we are talking about here. It's family and what family is. I don't think Mark Lowe or anyone in his organization has the right to define family.

Wow...after reading this article and the comments, I'll be adding Idaho as another state I won't be visting. I'll also be asking all my friends and family to avoid you're, admittedly, beautiful state. Sad, but the only power the oppressed have is to withhold our money. Sure, there aren't many states that legally accept gay families (so ridiculous), but they're also not so overt about it.

Really - why is this happening in 2009? The ignorant are fast becoming the minority - why are you kowtowing to them?

I must saw how impressed I am with the amount of supportive comments on this issue. I recently moved from Idaho, and although I received an excellent education, Idaho in general left a bad taste in my mouth and I was very afraid that by deciding to read the comments about the article, I would be infuriated. However, only a few comments really upset me. This is not a bible issue, this is not a homosexual-heterosexual issue. It comes down to how we (and Idaho) define a family. Should the government be able to define what a family is? I don't think so. Family is different for everyone. I would dare say that anyone who really supported the statements by Mark Lowe is not looking at this instance at its most basic level. They are failing to see past the fact that the couple who were denied admission with their children were homosexual - which really isn't the issue at all.

And by the way MeinNampa, I have no idea what made you think it was appropriate to bring up socialism (or more accurately, "Socialist Democracy"). This instance in no way has anything to do with socialism. I studied socialism extensively in college, and I can tell you that only a person who truly has no idea what socialism (or a "social democracy") really is would say something as completely uneducated as that.

And SJK, there have been many MANY studies done on the impact of same-sex parents on children and their consequential worldview. Longitudinal studies have shown that children brought up by same-sex parents turn out as equally (and some studies say more) well adjusted as children brought up by heterosexual parents, and are actually more likely to pursue advanced degrees. These children are also not any more likely to be homosexual than children raised by heterosexual parents. Seriously, go look them up. In addition to studying government in college, I also majored in Psychology, with my emphasis in Developmental Psychology.

Unfortunately, it is cases like this that forced me to make the decision to leave Idaho. I can only hope that those that still live there continue to fight for equality and justice for everyone, no matter their sexual orientation or their family situation. Many conservatives say they want the government to stay out of their lives - unless of course the government is poking their nose in a homosexual persons life. Hmmm...

Why is it every time a business or person stands up for a conservative idea or morally based idea they are berated and bomb barred with hatred. Why is it one side can say this is a free country and these people have a right to live the way they want to but, the conservatives have to keep our mouths shut and bow down to a liberal and socialistic way of thinking. If you don't like the way some one is treating you go some where else. This is a Free Country (for now) and if I don't agree with the life style your living I will not condone it. I will teach my child morals and family values. And we will honor the God that gives us freedom.

A big thanks to "JB" who posted Mark Lowe's email address. I'll paste the email I sent to Mr. Lowe so you can all see it as well:

Mr. Lowe,

I believe your recent decision, to deny the family with two mothers and three children the family admission rate, absolutely deplorable. It is not your duty to impose your twisted set of morals on the rest of us, especially being in a State position where our tax dollars pay your wage.

I am not a lesbian. I was married to my ex-husband for 16 years, and we have two children. We are divorced, but my children and I are still a family, although by your definition, we are not.

My father was gay. He was married to my mother for 23 years before he made the decision to follow the feelings he'd had his whole life. Were we less of a family, when I was young, because my father was gay? No. Did my brother, father and I stop being a family when they got divorced? Absolutely not!

My former mother-in-law was divorced, and was raising her 4 children, when her sister decided she couldn't be a mother anymore. My ex-mom-in-law took in her niece, raising all 5 children, by herself. That's family.

Just because it doesn't fit into a neat and tidy mold that you've convinced yourself is "right" or "righteous", doesn't mean it's not a family. These are all families.

A story that also ran on KTVB.com today was about a "family" whose "mother" and "father" allowed THEIR three children to "live in a filthy home with dead and malnourished puppies" (http://www.ktvb.com/news/localnews/stories/ktvbn-jun1009-filthy_home.6a263bcf.html). Are the drunken and drugged man and woman in this story more qualified to be leaders of a "family" than two women who take in foster children?

Mr. Lowe, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Sincerely,
Beth Mullin, Boise

Thanks to "JB" (above) posting Mark Lowe's email address, I sent the following message to Mr. Lowe, and I thought I'd share it with all of you:

Mr. Lowe,

I believe your recent decision, to deny the family with two mothers and three children the family admission rate, absolutely deplorable. It is not your duty to impose your twisted set of morals on the rest of us, especially being in a State position where our tax dollars pay your wage.

I am not a lesbian. I was married to my ex-husband for 16 years, and we have two children. We are divorced, but my children and I are still a family, although by your definition, we are not.

My father was gay. He was married to my mother for 23 years before he made the decision to follow the feelings he'd had his whole life. Were we less of a family, when I was young, because my father was gay? No. Did my brother, father and I stop being a family when they got divorced? Absolutely not!

My former mother-in-law was divorced, and was raising her 4 children, when her sister decided she couldn't be a mother anymore. My ex-mom-in-law took in her niece, raising all 5 children, by herself. That's family.

Just because it doesn't fit into a neat and tidy mold that you've convinced yourself is "right" or "righteous", doesn't mean it's not a family. These are all families.

A story that also ran on KTVB.com today was about a "family" whose "mother" and "father" allowed THEIR three children to "live in a filthy home with dead and malnourished puppies" (http://www.ktvb.com/news/localnews/stories/ktvbn-jun1009-filthy_home.6a263bcf.html). Are the drunken and drugged man and woman in this story more qualified to be leaders of a "family" than two women who take in foster children?

Mr. Lowe, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Sincerely,
Beth Mullin, Boise

I find it so funny how people just can't get over their own beliefs and just let things be. I seriously doubt that anyone would have cared or even noticed if they had allowed this family to have the discount rate. Really are you saving that much money by denying them the discount. You would think that in these hard economic times that Lava Hot Springs could over look their personal beliefs and think hmm maybe we should keep all the business we can and open our minds a little. I think that I may have gone out on a little tangent here, but it just blows my mind that in the year 2009 that there are still people who can't just take a look at the family and how well they are ajusted rather than who the parents are. Who cares if they care for their kids and love them. I work in the health care industry and trust me I see a lot more abused and neglected kids in so called traditional families than in non traditional families. It is about the kids isn't it. Not about what we think is right and wrong. LOL I'm done. I usually don't get this vocal.

Brian

I am not too surprised by the comments that have made on here about this situation. Bigotry crosses all socioeconomic lines and people in smaller towns seem to have been in less contact with the real world so they are not in the presence (at least they do not think they are) with gay people. There are quite a few of us out there in plain site. We do not tell you that we are gay as we know what your reaction would be (see various letters on here). As someone else said "We are Everywhere" we are just not telling you who we are. We are afraid for our lives because people just do not believe in tolerance.

This sort of goes along with a person from a remote part of the mountains that has not any exposure to say black people. Once the person gets to know the black person they usually become friends and the "country" boy learns respects as he now knows what it is like to live in a different society.

This blog was publicized in a email alert that brought a lot of homosexual activists to post here.

Homosexuals are disproportionately politically influential and wealthy. If there is any discrimination against homosexuals, it doesn't seem to be affecting them much other than making them mad.

Leah, there was no medication given to homosexuals to make them straight. It is not a "mental disorder" or chemical imbalance that can be cured, like depression. It is something they are born with, they cannot change it, no medication can "cure" them. I wouldn't want to live in a world where people were forced to take medication to make them straight. You're speaking complete nonsense.
I have no clue how you interpreted what I said to be that half of people are gay, it is more like 7-10%. I simply said homosexuals are born that way. How does that equate to HALF?!?
Homosexuality is not a "fad". I'm sorry, but men who are straight do not say, I want to be a part of this new fad called homosexuality, and go out and have sex with a man, as you claim. IT IS NOT A FAD! None of my gay friends woke up one day and said, "I want to be gay! How fun would that be? It's such a fad and so trendy, it looks fun!" My best friend was confused, so he tried to be with a girl, but found that he had absolutely no interest in her. He was not physically excited in any way. He tried this with several girls, and nothing. He was only physically attracted to men. Surely, if homosexuality was just a fad, a man being touched, sexually, by a woman would be aroused.
I've had several friends whose families did not approve of their sexuality and sent them to a therapy centre to "cure" them. They were not, and could never be "cured". I'm sure there are people out there who do not want to be gay, it can be a difficult life, but it's not something that just goes away. It's a far more difficult life to be a gay man, but married to a woman, putting on a "straight" façade, and not able to be your true self.
If homosexuality is a "fad", then why has homosexuality been observed in over 1500 species? Are gay humans going into the wild and their sexuality "rubbing off" onto other species? The only explanation would be that it is something that all species are born with.
It's complete ignorance that produces comments like yours. Do your research.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3735668.stm

i hope they got to other pools... there are other pools anyway, right?

very close-minded people

As a father, of a gay son I still feel that a gay couple is not a family. when they as a couple can give life with out outside help then we will consider them a family! as tax payers all working class americans "FEED, HOUSE, EDUCATE, PROVIDE HELTH CARE, AND MANY OTHER THINGS FOR ALL CHILDREN OF THE UNITED STATES"! As for the single parents out there you still a "SINGLE PARENT FAMILY"! I`am realy concerned for the future of this country with the SUE HAPPY PEOPLE and the you have to let me live the way I/we want to! when will it stop!

"Homosexuals are disproportionately politically influential and wealthy. If there is any discrimination against homosexuals, it doesn't seem to be affecting them much other than making them mad."

Are you serious? Did you say the same thing about black people 40 years ago?

I feel so sorry for DGGT' son... Kid, divorce your dad; he's a bigot straight from the bible, like all the rest of the so called God fearing bible bangers...
We're freakin all humans people, why oh why must some of you hate so much, I don't believe in God, Jesus, or any religion, I do however think there was something written in the bible that ALL people, ALL humans should consider their number one rule of life...And by no means do I think a holy person wrote it, just a very intelligent one.
DO ON TO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO ON TO YOU!!! Get it? It’s simple to live by

Serena,

Homosexuality was listed as a mental disorder by the American Psychological Association until 1975 and it was hotly debated as to whether or not it should be delisted. They say that it is not a disorder and at the same time say that people are born with it. Just like people that are schizophrenic, anorexic, bipolar, etc.

Homosexuality is not a normal behavior and should be treated as a psychological disorder. It has created a major public health issue in this country - AIDS - and cost taxpayers millions of dollars in AIDS research. This is a cost that is completely disproportionate to the amount of people in this country that are homosexual (2-5%).

Furthermore, you couldn't be more wrong about people being casually homosexual. To deny that is naivete. There is an undeniable fad element at play because gay people have made being gay "cool". I know people that have experimented because they thought it might be fun.

This is why many of us support Lava Hot Springs' decision. They have refused to give in to the bullying of the politically correct crowd and have stood for something they believed in deeply. They have refused to legitimize an activity which is not normal. I don't even care if these lesbians were singled out and treated differently. We treat people differently all the time in this country. How many convicted felons can own guns or vote? If they were completely denied access to this pool then I would agree with what everybody says, but, in my opinion they don't qualify as a family, therefore they don't get the family discount.

Rob,
How dare you compare lesbians to convicted felons! That is the most disgusting comparison I have ever heard. What two consenting adults do is of no business to you. They are not breaking the law, they are doing nothing wrong. Convicted felons have broken the law and have done something wrong.
I'm sorry that you feel it is a psychological disorder, but are you a psychiatrist or psychologist? Have you done scientific research on the topic? Are you an expert on the topic?
Please tell me, how does it affect your life if someone is gay? You seem to be very into the issue, but I do not see how it, in any way, affects your life.
You're right, homosexuality was listed as a mental disorder. The key word there: "was". It no longer is, and schizophrenia and bipolarity still are, because they are mental disorders. Homosexuality is not. Views change over time. Do you still think it is appropriate for non-Caucasians to use separate drinking fountains or pools? 50 years ago that was the norm in some parts of the country. I suppose now it's the norm to discriminate against homosexuals in parts of the country.
Yes, some people who would consider themselves "straight" do have sexual relations with members of the same sex. What is wrong with that? I went to college, I did see girls (who would consider themselves straight) kissing each other. My point is that homosexuality is NOT a fad. People are gay, not by choice, and not because of a fad. They are gay because that is who they are, not because it's "cool", as you put it.
The fact is that the state of Idaho has put children into this couple's home and considers them a family. Nowhere in the definition of a family does it state that the couple must be a man and a woman. Marriage was defined, unfortunately, but a family has not been defined. Maybe bigots like yourself can get the definition of a family defined in the next election? But, until then, this couple and their children are a family, and those children are blessed to have that family.

Rob,
How dare you compare lesbians to convicted felons! That is the most disgusting comparison I have ever heard. What two consenting adults do is of no business to you. They are not breaking the law, they are doing nothing wrong. Convicted felons have broken the law and have done something wrong.
I'm sorry that you feel it is a psychological disorder, but are you a psychiatrist or psychologist? Have you done scientific research on the topic? Are you an expert on the topic?
Please tell me, how does it affect your life if someone is gay? You seem to be very into the issue, but I do not see how it, in any way, affects your life.
You're right, homosexuality was listed as a mental disorder. The key word there: "was". It no longer is, and schizophrenia and bipolarity still are, because they are mental disorders. Homosexuality is not. Views change over time. Do you still think it is appropriate for non-Caucasians to use separate drinking fountains or pools? 50 years ago that was the norm in some parts of the country. I suppose now it's the norm to discriminate against homosexuals in parts of the country.
Yes, some people who would consider themselves "straight" do have sexual relations with members of the same sex. What is wrong with that? I went to college, I did see girls (who would consider themselves straight) kissing each other. My point is that homosexuality is NOT a fad. People are gay, not by choice, and not because of a fad. They are gay because that is who they are, not because it's "cool", as you put it.
The fact is that the state of Idaho has put children into this couple's home and considers them a family. Nowhere in the definition of a family does it state that the couple must be a man and a woman. Marriage was defined, unfortunately, but a family has not been defined. Maybe bigots like yourself can get the definition of a family defined in the next election? But, until then, this couple and their children are a family, and those children are blessed to have that family.

My partner and I take care of two adults with disabilities, who in a sense are children themselves. We all live under the same roof, and are considered by the state of Idaho to be a Certified "Family" Home. I am assuming if we visited Lava Hot Springs we would also be denied the family admission price. Can you imagine being a small child (or a person with disabilities)being told the "family" you love is not your family by a complete stranger. An adult for that matter who should have known better. Those kids feelings should have been considered before your beliefs. Shame on Lave Hot Springs!!!

I wonder how many of you self-righteous types voted for Adam Lambert in American Idol? You know he's gay right? Ut oh!

Wow, first I would like to say that I am really encouraged and pleased with so many comments that are in support of this family (yes, family!). I was surprised as I expected more redneck, bigoted comments from Idahoans and their conservative, religious culture. I am happy to see that things have changed, at least the opinions seem more tolerant than when I grew up there 20 some years ago. There are still a few hateful idiots, like hanson and eric, but for the most part the comments seem thoughtful and spot on. In todays world what exactly constitutes a family? Single parents seem to be the norm. Grandparents are frequently raising their grandkids, siblings take on responsibilities from other siblings and adoptions are more common. Would any of the above scenarios get turned away? It is surely the principle of them not getting the family discount and what it represents...bigotry and discrimination.
Last point: Rob, you are an absolute fool! So now being gay is a "cool" fad? If that is the case then I guess I have been fabulously "cool" since birth. What a jackwad!

It's nice to know that we live in such a tolerant society where religious principles aren't forced on others, no one is judged for their life choices and decisions, that one can be accepted for who they are and not discriminated against due to their physical appearance, handi-caps, age, religion, sexual orientation, etc. etc.

I am sure our children will grow up with the same principles and be proud of their parents and the area they grew up in.

*PURE SARCASM*

First its "marriage is defined in the constitution as being between 1 man & 1 woman" and now it's "Family" being defined? Did I miss a large piece of legislation go through? Seriously though, that's jacked. Let's discriminate so we can save a couple bucks, woohoo!

MeinNampa: You're wrong. A business that offers a public accomodation cannot pick and choose who they provide their services to. Have you notice we don't have "whites only" signs in restaurant windows anymore? But I suppose you think we should.

I believe that what consitutes a "family" is who you choose to surround yourself with. I was a single mom for a couple years, I have no "blood" brothers or sisters but my children call my friends "aunts" and "uncles"(which is how I grew up with my parents friends)! My ex-husband and I still take our children out on outtings w/ our current spouses and kids. We all still consider ourselves a "family" just in a different sense. There are few and far between families that are "traditional"! We all need to look at the big picture....these kids believe they have a "family" and that they should because 2 people care about them and care for them which is more than what it sounds like they had before! SOOO....FORGET WHAT THEY DO BEHIND CLOSED DOORS, IT IS NONE OF OUR BUSINESS!!!

I just wanted to reply to all the people that say it's ok for the businesses to refuse service to who they wish. I will only agree if they post a sign at the front door that is plainly visible to all the public that says "NO BLACKS" or "NO GAYS" or "NO JEWS" or "NO CRIPLES", I could go on and on. But really people, are we going back in time? If you want to be selective, then make your business a private one and personally select your patrons. If you are truely open to the public, suck it up and deal with "THE PUBLIC" which includes everyone on this polluted planet.

Not a Family? Let us take the most disadvantaged children in our society--ones who want to be part of a FAMILY, foster or not--and show them how they will never be good enough and that those foster parents will never be good enough. Get over semantics! That *is* a family.

Remember that we ALL have a vested interest in raising happy, healthy and productive children in this world and that children have a right to has many people who will love and mentor them as possible--Because THAT is what defines family....

How very cruel and ignorant. As an employee there, the right thing to do would be to make an "exception" to the stupid rule until it could be changed or clarified. Not to subject a family to humiliation and confuse & hurt kids.

Actually, one of the woman & her children were admitted under the discount on that day. Her partner & niece paid seperately.

It was not about religion. Lava Hot Springs is a part of Idaho Parks & Recreation. They have a policy & state law to guide them. The law is established by the people of Idaho through their reps, & judges.

The discount policy states that children & those legally responsible for them (one or both parents, foster parents, or legal guardians) are included. It is not nearly as narrow as some imply. A single mother (or father) & children would be admitted.

If I came with my children, a close friend living with us, & a nephew...myself & children would be eligible, but my friend & nephew would not. To give us all the discount would violate the policy & trust of others who attended in the past.

The policy & state law can be changed. The discount may be removed to avoid litigation, which is a shame. The state law is not likely to change any time soon.

The issue of religion and the definition of marriage are really seperate issues altogether, and did not come into play.

In my own opinion on that, we live in a time when traditional definitions and values are being blurred. It is not un-Christian to point out what the definition of those terms, according to scriptural reference and history are, or the positive impact those definitons have on society, or the negative impact rejecting them is likely to have. To the contrary, to not do so with love and reason, would itself be un-Christian. What is un-Christian is to be mean or hateful while so doing.

Nor should the religously minded sit by in conversation or law and and not stand up to things they feel are wrong, or not stand up to...with reason and with respect...the efforts to change those definitions and fundamental moral values that they hold dear, and which are in fact, traditionally the foundation upon which our nation and its constitution rest. It is just as much their right to do so, as those holding different views. Having said that, I believe John Adams, one of the architects of the founding of this nation, said it best:

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."- John Adams, Oct. 11, 1798

That truth holds today as surely as it did back then. Times do change, and people do change...either for the good or bad...but fundamental truth and human nature do not change.

Our society is meant to work with the people, either through referendum, or through their representatives, establishing, under the constitution and within its framework, the laws that govern us. That is what has happened in Idaho and other states.

But the basic understanding that this framework was designed for religious and moral people stands. Despite whatever problems we have now, or have had, it is precisely because of the Christian foundation of this nation...and I do not mean just words, but mean the basic goodness of the people in understanding, living, and trying to provide Christlike principles in their lives...that America has been the freest, most prosperous, and most giving (charitable) nation in history...again, despite whatever mistakes and problems.

KTVB along with several blog sites and other news media have not told us exactly what the Family Pass Policy for the Lava Hot Springs Foundation. Here is the main part of it –
“Eligibility: In order to be as consistent as possible, families that are eligible for the discount are considered to be parents and children. The children must be dependent children of the parent, or parents, present at the time of entry, and under the age of 18. For the purpose of this discount, parent is defined as the person who has long-term legal responsibility for the dependent children.
Discussion: The children need not be biological offspring of the legally responsible adult(s). Adopted children and foster children are considered part of the family so long as the stipulations listed above are met. Parents are defined as those adults who are either legally obligated to the care of the dependent children or are married to the adult who is the parent of the dependent children. Single parents and their children are eligible for the discount. Adults who are raising their siblings are eligible for the discount.”

This is the current policy and has been the policy for a very long time. (It was not just newly created and posted.) If you read the policy it says “families that are eligible”. It does not say “a family is….”

The Family pass was offered to attract business during the weekdays AND to help reduce some expenses for patrons. This policy was not written to discriminate against a non-traditional family or Gay or Lesbian couples. It was written to have some control over a discount so they could diminish the abuse of the policy. This discount allows people who work for the pool, a chance to receive more work hours and to financially keep the business doors open. (Most people who work at the foundation probably earn minimum wage and are not full time employees.) Without some type of a policy in place to qualify the eligibility, you would have an entire family reunion of 100 people wanting to be admitted on a family pass. Let’s see…..100 people admitted for only $20……. that would not even cover 1 lifeguards wages for a day. How long would the pool stay in business without sometime of a control policy?

Is the policy abused? Do people take advantage of it by taking cousins, friends, etc to the pool with the intention of having them all admitted as a part of their “family group”? There are probably times that this has worked and other times that it has not. When this works – the employees that allowed admission of this so called “family group” they are not allowing admission under a family pass because the employee want to show favoritism to them – it was that the patrons were being dishonest, they were cheating the system – stealing.

One thing that has not been mentioned in any of the news articles that I have read or the news reports that I have seen - is – when the “Family Policy” became an issue on that day – did the employee know that both were legal guardians of the 3 children? I don’t know this answer? Do you? Or if it was brought up – were both parties upset to the point of not being able to fully listen. (Big difference between hearing and listening.)
I have 2 sisters that live together under one roof. 1 is the Mother of 3 children the other has no children, but they both care for, feed, put them to bed each night and love those children. My sisters being related and with the 3 children, are they eligible for a Family Pass at the Lava Hot Springs Pools? Only 1 of them is the legal guardian, so according to the policy the mother and the children could be admitted under a family pass and the other sister would have to pay an individual ticket fee. For the sake of argument let’s say that my sister that is the Mother has taken the legal steps to also name my other sister as a legal guardian of the children so if the Mother is out of town or if something were to happen to her – the guardianship of the children is already there. Would the Family Pass Policy be brought up as they purchased tickets? Unless the employee personally knew them and their circumstances – I am pretty positive that the Policy would be brought up.

Members of the Shoshone-Bannock Indian Tribe receive free admission to Lava Hot Springs pools. So when a patron request the free pass & an employee asks to see the tribal membership card of the patron – is this wrong?

Did you know that even if you qualify for a family pass – there is an additional $1.50 charge for any child age 2 or under.. So by charging this additional fee, is it discriminating against toddlers or families with toddlers when the family qualified for a $20 family pass.

It appears to me that the news media and those who have started Blogs on this story have made the choice to make this an issue of gay marriage and everyone’s definition of what a family is? So many of those commenting on the Blogs have been upset that that even a single parented family would not qualify for the family pass at the pool? WOW – what a bunch of misconceptions. Read the policy for yourself. Mark Lowe is quoted at the beginning of this blog as stating that “a family is one male, one female and children and that the State does not recognize gay marriage” I have seen different versions of this quote. Change one word and the meaning is very different. I have also read quotes from Mr. Lowe where his quote is the same as portions of the pool policy. So how much of what Mr. Lowe said has been taken out of context?

I have often heard that when someone is at odds with another person, that one version is quite different from the other persons version and the truth is usually somewhere in between. Remember that the Family Pass Policy is not defining what a family is it is states: "to be eligible for a family pass". There is a good chance that the Family Pass will be discontinued, perhaps they should just rename it the Guardian Pass.

KTVB along with several blog sites and other news media have not told us exactly what the Family Pass Policy for the Lava Hot Springs Foundation. Here is the main part of it –
“Eligibility: In order to be as consistent as possible, families that are eligible for the discount are considered to be parents and children. The children must be dependent children of the parent, or parents, present at the time of entry, and under the age of 18. For the purpose of this discount, parent is defined as the person who has long-term legal responsibility for the dependent children.
Discussion: The children need not be biological offspring of the legally responsible adult(s). Adopted children and foster children are considered part of the family so long as the stipulations listed above are met. Parents are defined as those adults who are either legally obligated to the care of the dependent children or are married to the adult who is the parent of the dependent children. Single parents and their children are eligible for the discount. Adults who are raising their siblings are eligible for the discount.”

This is the current policy and has been the policy for a very long time. (It was not just newly created and posted.) If you read the policy it says “families that are eligible”. It does not say “a family is….”

The Family pass was offered to attract business during the weekdays AND to help reduce some expenses for patrons. This policy was not written to discriminate against a non-traditional family or Gay or Lesbian couples. It was written to have some control over a discount so they could diminish the abuse of the policy. This discount allows people who work for the pool, a chance to receive more work hours and to financially keep the business doors open. (Most people who work at the foundation probably earn minimum wage and are not full time employees.) Without some type of a policy in place to qualify the eligibility, you would have an entire family reunion of 100 people wanting to be admitted on a family pass. Let’s see…..100 people admitted for only $20……. that would not even cover 1 lifeguards wages for a day. How long would the pool stay in business without sometime of a control policy?

Is the policy abused? Do people take advantage of it by taking cousins, friends, etc to the pool with the intention of having them all admitted as a part of their “family group”? There are probably times that this has worked and other times that it has not. When this works – the employees that allowed admission of this so called “family group” they are not allowing admission under a family pass because the employee want to show favoritism to them – it was that the patrons were being dishonest, they were cheating the system – stealing.

One thing that has not been mentioned in any of the news articles that I have read or the news reports that I have seen - is – when the “Family Policy” became an issue on that day – did the employee know that both were legal guardians of the 3 children? I don’t know this answer? Do you? Or if it was brought up – were both parties upset to the point of not being able to fully listen. (Big difference between hearing and listening.)
I have 2 sisters that live together under one roof. 1 is the Mother of 3 children the other has no children, but they both care for, feed, put them to bed each night and love those children. My sisters being related and with the 3 children, are they eligible for a Family Pass at the Lava Hot Springs Pools? Only 1 of them is the legal guardian, so according to the policy the mother and the children could be admitted under a family pass and the other sister would have to pay an individual ticket fee. For the sake of argument let’s say that my sister that is the Mother has taken the legal steps to also name my other sister as a legal guardian of the children so if the Mother is out of town or if something were to happen to her – the guardianship of the children is already there. Would the Family Pass Policy be brought up as they purchased tickets? Unless the employee personally knew them and their circumstances – I am pretty positive that the Policy would be brought up.

Members of the Shoshone-Bannock Indian Tribe receive free admission to Lava Hot Springs pools. So when a patron request the free pass & an employee asks to see the tribal membership card of the patron – is this wrong?

Did you know that even if you qualify for a family pass – there is an additional $1.50 charge for any child age 2 or under.. So by charging this additional fee, is it discriminating against toddlers or families with toddlers when the family qualified for a $20 family pass.

It appears to me that the news media and those who have started Blogs on this story have made the choice to make this an issue of gay marriage and everyone’s definition of what a family is? So many of those commenting on the Blogs have been upset that that even a single parented family would not qualify for the family pass at the pool? WOW – what a bunch of misconceptions. Read the policy for yourself. Mark Lowe is quoted at the beginning of this blog as stating that “a family is one male, one female and children and that the State does not recognize gay marriage” I have seen different versions of this quote. Change one word and the meaning is very different. I have also read quotes from Mr. Lowe where his quote is the same as portions of the pool policy. So how much of what Mr. Lowe said has been taken out of context?

I have often heard that when someone is at odds with another person, that one version is quite different from the other persons version and the truth is usually somewhere in between. Remember that the Family Pass Policy is not defining what a family is it is states: "to be eligible for a family pass". There is a good chance that the Family Pass will be discontinued, perhaps they should just rename it the Guardian Pass.

Wow, I can't believe some people. So I should be able to just round up a bunch of neighbor kids and call ourselves a family then get a discount rate? I think the pool owners did the right thing and should be able to decide on their own without the state getting involved.

How much would you be willing to bet that every time a heterosexual couple with kids has applied for a "family rate" at Lava Hot Springs, the management has never, EVER asked to see a marriage license?

http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2009/06/no-discount-gay-family-told-youre-not.html

Once again, those of us who are against gays are painted as hate mongers. When will the shoe be on the other foot? The gays preach back and forth about tolerance...Why cant they "tolerate" the fact that some people just dont like that lifestyle, and voicing my opinion on the aberrant lifestyle does not make me a racist, a hate monger, or anything else they like to call us. The point is, I abhore the gay lifestyle, and the flamboyance that leaks from the majority of the in your face gays. They preach tolerance, but dont put their money where their mouth is. Having said that, give the kids the discount, as I am sure this will stir up alot of crap that ranks really low on the importance list with the times we are living in today. It is not the kids fault their parents are gays, so give them the discount.

It's not about accepting your hate Matthew. Hate whoever you want, but when it impinges on my rights? That's where your hate ends. Period.

Amber or Jeri, you're getting a lot of support from all over the state. Hold your heads high. Please send me an email too. You visited my blog life and times....

Dear Lord, In this day and age I can't believe that there are still people in this world that are and act stupid and completly dumb to the fact that there are familys of diffrent colors and genders that includes straight people,homosexual, lesbian, bisexual,gender benders,cross dressers and any other type of human being you can think of, wonderful people,hard working folks and doing all they can to help others ( REMEMBER THE CHILDREN AT THE POOL BEING TOLD THAT THEY WERE NOT A FAMILY) How in the hell do you think those children must have felt!! Amber and Jen is most likely is the best home those foster children have had ever, so give me a Damed break and and open your stupid pool....

I better go tell my two kids that we are not a family. Their father took off to marry someone else and left me and the two kids without a father. Go take your definition of family and stick it in your ear! [I am meaning this to the guy at the resort that denied them]

"Why can't people just get along. Leave your bedroom antics out of mine and I will stay out of yours."

I grew up in Idaho and was born in Montpelier, Idaho- not far from Lava Hot Springs. My family has been there quite a few times. I no longer live in Idaho, but I will let my family not to Ever go there again, I am also a lesbian and my family support me, no matter my sexual orientation. I have raised two sons and WE ARE A FAMILY!

Geez. Let's punish the kids....a "family" has changed in definition over time as people divorce, people adopt, etc. A loving home is a loving home. No one should use the bible as a weapon to limit civil rights. No wonder many of my friends don't want to visit Idaho, a state that I love.

Boycott.

Hanson, it is a secular society, well, allegedly, It's not about being christian or any religion, it's about being human, and as you are obviously a Christian and a fan of the bible, you should read more on teh part where Jesus preaches Love, or have you not got to the 2nd part and stick with the OT? Written centuries ago, the OT also states it's a sin to where man made fibres, so all polyster wearers should face eternal damnation?? If your opinion is followed through to a logical conclusion you are saying they should be barred from state run agencies as they are not Christian, does this go for members of other religions and even other branches of Christians under the same umberella?

A family is a state of mind,it's a feeling you have and how you care for people, kith and kin, if they have changed the kids nappies, feed them,brought them up with good, human, moral values and above all else, Love them, they are a family. I have three step kids and do everything I can for them, they ARE my family, more so than actual blood relatives of mine or theirs.

This is for Eric and others with the same backwards thoughts about equal rights!

Only 50 years ago, schools, restaurants, public bathrooms, and even drinking fountains were strictly segregated through much of the South.

Nearly 50 years ago, Rosa Parks made history by refusing to give her seat to a white man on a segregated public bus in Montgomery, AL.

We were as ignorant then about color, as we are today about same sex marriage!

I thought this was the 21st century, not the dark ages!

The amount of comments supporting this family is a positive light and shows hope that we may be able to turn this negative situation into an opportunity for gay rights.

First off, those who referenced the bible stating the homosexuality is "an abomonation," let us remember that in the bible is also states that working on Sunday is punishable by stoning as well as co-habiting with someone of the opposite sex and not being married to them. It's the 21st century, people. Maybe there are a few things we can leave out from the bible and focus on more of the treating people well and being a good, honest person. That sort of thing seems more important.

Second, tribes in Africa help each other in raising children and regular chores--whehter or not they are related. They see each other as a family and help any way they can. My friend and her 10-month-old are a family. My boyfriend and I are a family. We are a family because we care for each other, help each other and make a home together. The definition of family does not include terms such as "marriage", "man and wife", "heterosexual", etc. A Family is a group of people that help each other and make a home and a community. These women are a family and are raising these children together and are probably doing a better job than some heterosexual couples. Let us not treat these people different. Whether you like it or not, they are still human beings and should be treated as such.

Well this is a classic example of idaho trying to push its "traditional family values" on everyone, people actually build campaigns around this motto in Idaho.

You know what, like barack obama said, its time for CHANGE, not only should everyone protest and boycott Lava springs, we should also take this issue to the state legislature and demand change!

As an Idaho resident i'm saddened by this type of bigotry, but its nothing new from idaho, ive been called many names because of the color of my skin while relaxing at Mccall.

Lets stand up for our people, it doesn't matter if they are white black purple gay straight bisexual transgender whatever it may be, we are all still one people. NOW LETS TREAT EACH OTHER AS SUCH!!!

In the words of Cesar Chavez, SI SE PUEDE! ( YES WE CAN!)

As much as I don't agree with their lifestyle the definition of a family is such that anyone who lives together could be considered a family so I don't see any reason they shouldn't have gotten the discount.